Insane cartoon reaction
Okay seriously, it's a fucking cartoon. How dare these stupid Muslims go around behaving the way they have been. Who DO they think they are?!
I saw an interesting opinion voiced by a Muslim on IRC. By interesting I mean hilariously stupid.
Firstly, they asked me to imagine if a cartoon was posted in a newspaper depicting my mother being fucked by a dog.
Well, umm, I certainly wouldn't go around burning embassies and sending death threats to random citizens of the country that the newspaper resides in. I wouldn't go around enforcing my view that my mum is the greatest in the world and no other mum is better than her, and I wouldn't burn flags or dress up like a suicide bomber in some sort of bizarre protest.
And then he went on to say that the threats and violence against the Danish citizens and consulate makes sense because they are just as responsible for what is printed in their newspapers as anyone else.
Umm...as a citizen of the United Kingdom, I can't say that I have even the tiniest ability to effect what is printed in the newspaper's over here. I am even more certain however that should The Sun or The Daily Mail choose to print a certain cartoon, I would have no say over whether it were published, and would be damn pissed off if I started to receive death threats because of it. Absurd.
Of course, as with all idiots, this person could not accept the fact that they are wrong. All Muslims who think that this cartoon is offensive enough for the violence and insanity that has ensued to be deemed understandable is wrong, and plain stupid. Simple as that. There is no argument.
Could the cartoon be construed as offensive? Certainly. Should they have printed it? Probably not. Are the reactions reasonable? No.
I was under the impression that Islam is a peaceful religion and that the Muslim community is a peace-loving one. That's what I'm constantly told too. And yet all I ever hear about is how they are angry about something, how they are burning things down in protest, how they are blowing themselves up. I even spoke to a couple of Sikh guys at school a couple years ago, and he said that should a Sikh person ever marry a Muslim, their parents would throw them out and probably beat them.
Peaceful. Honest.
Edit: By the way, I also know a bunch of do-gooders will insist that these are the actions of a "few" extremists. Don't bother posting a comment. I'm not interested in listening to your bullshit quite frankly, and nor is anyone else. I've never known a religion to have so many "few" extremists!
Update: It seems another French magazine has reprinted the cartoons with a court's permission. This is just stupid. They are even considering re-issuing the cartoons because they've sold so many copies. Do they not know the definition of "hype"?
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ooookay
Okay, someone is a little angry. Did you think that possibly the cartoon is irrelevant and that this is just a general release of religious tensions, and the cartoon is just and excuse and a spark? Yes these reactions are over the top, but do you not think that could possibly mean that there is a greater cause, rather the explanation being 'all muslims are evil pigs who deserve to be shot'? There is a great amount of muslim tnesions in the u.k nowadays - partially caused by rejection of the muslim community from comments like yours
Also the cartoon is more offensive than your mother fucking a dog. This is like walking into St.Petere's cathedral and taking a shit on the altar - and then being surprised when people get angry. For being this dumbass the cartoonist deserves a load of hate mail and flaming torches. But he doesn't deserve to be killed.
That is true. these protests should not be happening. They have no right to behave this way. It will not help anything and simply cause more tensions. They are not always a peace-loving community and they overreact far too easily as a religion in general. But the west has fucked them about for years, the u.k fucks its muslim community well and truly - and now we're surprised when there is a reaction? It is over the top, but it should have been expected
And simply becoming more prejudiced and saying the solution is 'muslims are a evil and should be stopped' is not going to help anything
"Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suf-fer-ing"
Um
Your attitude is not really going to help anything with conditions in the Middle East. Did you consider that maybe the overreaction to the cartoon resulted from a buildup of resentment towards all the shit the West has thrown at the Middle East the past decade or so? Though I'm not a Muslim nor do I live in the Middle East, I imagine that it feels like the Western world is now blatantly declaring that they don't give a fuck about religion, especially Islam. To a culture that revolves so completely around religion, this is a big deal. There are a lot of emotions tangled up in religion and politics, and it's unsurprising that in an area that's having a lot of religious and political trauma at the moment, an ignorant, blasphemous cartoon would result in such a reaction.
As for it being the actions of a "few extremists," obviously the whole Muslim Community is deeply insulted by this. Of course it wouldn't be just a few people, though Muslims' reactions do, of course, vary, just as any other religious group's reaction would vary if placed in the same situation. The reaction is not about whether or not Muslims are "extremists" or "terrorists" or whether Islam promotes violence; of course it does not. Fundamentalist sects in any religion tend to be more violent and more extreme; this is not unique to Islam by any means. However, this reaction is so widespread among the Middle East because it is such an inflammatory event.
Are you hanging on to something useless just because you think it's beautiful?
--William Zinsser
"resulted from a buildup of r
"resulted from a buildup of resentment towards all the shit the West has thrown at the Middle East"
Excuse me? We've been throwing shit at them? If you think bending over backwards to take into account their religion, beliefs and language throwing shit at them, then yes. If you consider altering our laws to make sure that they, and other ethnic minorities, are included in all events and have a shot at getting all jobs throwing shit at them, then yes. If you call encouraging children to welcome other faiths and understand others in schools throwing shit at them, then yes, they are covered head to toe in shit.
"I imagine that it feels like the Western world is now blatantly declaring that they don't give a fuck about religion"
Quite frankly, the Western world doesn't give a shit about religion. Church is empty on Sundays if you hadn't noticed. People may well believe in God and consider themselves faithful, but no, the majority of Western people do not have time to drench their day in prayer like many in the Muslim community do.
Now, am I the only one with any sanity here? We bend over backwards to embrace their culture...and yet whilst you don't support their actions, you can UNDERSTAND their reaction to us when our culture differs from theirs? What. The. Fuck.
"To a culture that revolves so completely around religion, this is a big deal."
Well guess what, I found flying aeroplanes into the side of buildings a pretty big deal. I found bombs going off in my capital city a pretty big deal too. Should I tarnish the entire Muslim community with the same brush? Should I take the current protestor's attitudes and say that the terrorists are representative of the entire nation so they should all burn?
No. I shouldn't, and I don't. So why the fuck is it even so much as UNDERSTANDABLE for the current protestor's to say the entire population of Denmark should be wiped out?
It's do-gooders like you that really piss me off. You prance around saying how you do not "support" these people's actions, but then try and sit on the fence by saying you can "understand" it. People like you did exactly the same thing with September 11th - "I do not support 9/11, but I understand why it happened". /me growls.
We are a culture that does NOT revolve around religion. We are a culture that revolves around freedom of speech - that is why people are free to burn Danish embassies and burn flags without the Danish army storming over to India and razing all of their temples. I do not see why we should back down to their rantings about how their religion is the greatest and how Allah is the only true God, they are not part of our culture. If they don't like it, maybe they should excercise their right not to read our newspapers, or better yet, not to enter our country.
By the way, for those amongst you who clearly can't read, it was the Muslim on IRC who came up with the motherfucking dog analogy, not me. So stop trying to tell me I have no grasp of the magnitude of the offense, I do, but I was merely using a Muslim's example.
"Bigamy is having one wife too many. Monogamy is the same."
- Oscar Wilde
No, violence and destruction
No, violence and destruction as a reaction to something like this is not okay. However, I think you fail to realize exactly how serious something like this is. It's not like a picture of your mother fucking a dog. It's like if someone took the one thing in the world that you feel is most sacred and then dropped it into a septic tank. Or burned it. Imagine how that would feel. The cartoon was uncalled for. The violence as a response to the cartoon was uncalled for. The end.
Simply ranting about how stupid Muslims are is also uncalled for, and probably less productive than either the cartoon or the violence.
False Analogy
Muslims lost nothing. No one killed their prophet. Burning is destruction, no-one destroyed anything.
As a Christian, I know how serious this is. It's as serious as "Jerry Springer: The Opera". It's as serious as "Monty Python's Life of Brian". It's as serious as every second person using "Oh My God" as if it were polite.
All this shows is that Islamic countries have an appalling record on human rights. In the same way that the extreme "cleanliness" of our environment is increasing allergy rates, their extreme suppression of freedom of speech is blowing things out of proportion. Religion is an opinion. How a group which advocates death for a state of being can make an offence of expressing an opposing opinion is truly beyond me.
And as for the protests, it basically amounted to:
* "You portrayed us as terrorists. Thank Allah for 9/11!"
* "We're peaceful. Watch your embassy burn"
* "We're offended by your ignorance of our culture. You'll burn for this, Norway"
Let profuse eye rolling commence...
Umm yeah..
They setting our (Norwegian) embassies ablaze, burning our flag and attacking those we have outside our borders. It's insane... But I think the people that printed them are arrogant and unintelligent, even though I support the rights of free press..
This is starting a purely religeous war, and it is a war I doubt "we" (the west) will win. They have scores of commited beleivers, who feel violated, and all we have are a bunch of arrogant Christians telling then what they can and cannot do.
Dim
Btw, how did you get the impression that Islam was a peaceful religion? It was formed in an arab tribal culture and teaches absolutism and the outdated veiw of women; and, like you saw earlier this year, they have no problem hanging innocent boys who are not even of age, just because they are gay...
i agree campfire, no one shou
i agree campfire, no one should insult someone elses religion but no-one should threaten or endanger anyone elses life either. groups can voice their opinions without being violent or threatening - after all, the cartoons werent either - they were offensive, granted, but come on - saying whole nations should be beheaded - is that not also offensive?
btw the guy who dressed as a suicide bomber (the one everyones making a huge fuss about) has been arrested. he was on parole. just some extra info...
--i used to be a tomboy, now im a full grown lesbian--
**you must be the change you wish to see in the world**
honestly, what did you expect
honestly, what did you expect? with everything that the west has done to them they are bound to react and i don't care if you don't want to hear it, when u think about how many muslims r out there, there extreamists r a tiny fraction, but they seem 2 b the only ones ppl ever think about & stareotyping thewm all 4 the actions of a few is just stupid & ignorant! no, what they are doing is not right & i'm certainly not condoning it& maybe I'm overreacting b/c steriotyping & generalizing is a hot button isue with me but i can't help it
also, if you look at it from their point of view, that cartoon was defaming their entire religeon, especialy to a culture that believes that even showing an image of someone is wrong
************************
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The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
The frumious Bandersnatch!"
People keep saying something
People keep saying something about the West's abuse towards Asia/Middle-East/Eastern Europe - could you please state precisely what this abuse is?
Living in the UK (and excluding the Iraq war which many of us disagree with), I see nothing but tolerance for every community, but particularly the Muslim community. I think we do lots to help them. Like sending huge amounts of aid when some natural disaster happens in a Muslim country. I certainly hope Denmark and Norway think twice now. Muslims have attacked their governments despite the fact that the government do not control the newspapers, and despite this, apologised anyway! I don't think they should have apologised. Only the newspapers should have apologised. Everyone else is just backing down to them in fear, which is the worst thing to do and has probably made the situation worse.
In my opinion, the only way to deal with riots like these is zero tolerance - a bit like the French riots, but even they pandered to their violence. If violence is to be prevented people need to see how hopeless it is to do it.
P.S. I found it interesting to do a search of 'riot' at www.bbc.co.uk - the first page of results were related to Asian/Middle Eastern/Eastern-European countries or race-related riots (such as one in a Los Angeles prison involving Blacks against Hispanics). In fact, most of the second page is related to race-related riots too!
"Bigamy is having one wife too many. Monogamy is the same."
- Oscar Wilde
What?
"Living in the UK (and excluding the Iraq war which many of us disagree with), I see nothing but tolerance for every community, but particularly the Muslim community"
I'm sorry - what the fuck? Tolerance for Muslims in Britain. Teah right. Ever seen the Sun? Ever seen the BNP website? Ever heard anyone's comment about women in veils (which is a fairly shitty idea to be fair). Almost all the people i know call muslims towleheads. Britian is very prejudiced against muslims. Do you naturally assume that muslims are terrorists? Most people in britain do nowadays.
However...i agree islam is one of the more screwed up religions (and that's saying something), one that has oftn failed to modernise. But what people meant by "should have expected it" is that the west have fucked them (admit - since when have we been nice to an islamic country) and that it is a very reactive religion with a lot of pissed off members.If you (a gay man) went into St.Peteres and took a shit on the altar would you be surprised when the Catholics got angry?
"the only way to deal with riots like these is zero tolerance" oh yeeah because zero tolerance schemes towards islam have always worked - palestine is a peaceful haven, iraq is a perfectly stable country and the crusades never happened
"Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suf-fer-ing"
I try not to read The Sun, se
I try not to read The Sun, seeing as it's full of rubbish. However, it's a Labour supporting newspaper and Labour does nothing but support the Muslim community because of their obsession with political correctness. When I have seen The Sun lying on a train or whatever, I've not seen racist comments coming from it.
The BNP is a stupid example, most of the British people are anti-BNP. Racism however, IS on the increase over here, but due to the fact the Muslim community insists upon us that we allow them to do whatever they like, whenever they like. People don't want to see huge Muslim parades in the streets in their country, it simply doesn't belong. People don't see why Sikhs should be allowed to carry around swords for religious purposes, but nobody else is allowed to carry a knife for protection. People don't understand why women want to hide every part of their body and not speak to white men. People don't WANT to understand either quite frankly.
I still disagree that the "west have fucked them". I haven't seen anyone come up with any good examples of how we have done this, I have provided you with several examples of how (at least British) people help and embrace Muslims.
I have never heard someone call a Muslim a "towel head". Racism is thoroughly frowned upon, from all the people I know anyway *shrugs*
"Bigamy is having one wife too many. Monogamy is the same."
- Oscar Wilde
The Sun
The Sun is racist, trust me. It's also full of utter bollocks though to be fair - you're right no one does pay attention to them. Or the BNP. And as for allowing Muslims to do what they like - well, it is a liberal democracy, freedom of action - within regulations - is generally encorouged.
You say you don't want to see Muslim parades, why not? Okay parades are kind of annoying, but what's wrong with muslims ones in particular. When they come to thi country are they not allowed to practice their own traditions? Is their culture just eliminated? Or do we not allow other cultures in Britain - how foolish of me to have forgotten that law.
As for Sikhs and knives - they don't carry them around for protection, Sikhs's knives are purely ceremonial.
People don't understand why women cover their body - no they don't but that's because they didn't bother to lern anything about any other culture beyond what they saw on holiday in Ibiza. But you mention part of the problem yourself - "People don't want to understand" - if you don't try to understand than how the hell are you going to help anything? In the end you don't have to agree with it. I don't, nor does anyone else here, approve of women having to cover their body, or killing people over a cartoon. But at least try to understand why to begin with. How can you ever make a reasoned judgement about something you didn't even try to understand. Shall I say the Theory of Relativity is wrong because I don't understand it? Until you make some attempt at understanding something you cannot critise it. Until Britain makes some effort of understanding Muslim culture itn can never solve its problems. Vica-versa for Muslims.
And I'm glad you don't see any racism. Try moving to Buckinghamshire
"Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suf-fer-ing"
I didn't say those were MY fe
I didn't say those were MY feelings, I was merely stating what I perceive seem to be what the majority of people I speak to are fed up with.
I would note however, that you say people not wanting to understand their religion a problem...umm...since when did not wanting to understand the religion of a foreign country become a problem? Oh, since Muslims started to find it offensive that the countries they immigrate to don't want to praise Allah. Right. That makes sense.
The Sikhs thing...I quite clearly said "Sikhs carry knives for religious purposes" or words to that effect. What I said was, people don't understand why a Sikh can carry around some big sword for a religious reason, and nobody else can for protection. Just an example of what someone said to me over coffee once.
"they didn't bother to lern anything about any other culture beyond what they saw on holiday in Ibiza."
Again, why should people be forced to learn about other cultures in the first place? Just because they are choosing to live in our country?
If I broke into someone's house because they have a better standard of living than me, and then declared that they should obey my beliefs and follow what I say, would you agree with my actions? I doubt it.
How much do we expect Muslims to know about Christianity or Catholicism? Do we expect them to "respect" and "embrace" Western religions? If we do, I'm surprised. Because they quite blatantly don't.
Confused
You quite clearly say that "since when did not wanting to understand the religion of a foreign country become a problem?" but at the same time critise Muslims for not wanting to embrace our religions and learn our culture. This makes no sense. True they do not make much effort at all - but that's no reason for us not to either. If you don't try to understand a religion then how can you make any judgement about it? To have a decent existence in the world you have to try to understand it - what sort of shitty life is it if all you ever do is only ever see and understand your own culture. If the any country fails to understand foreign issues, then it will either fail or become an asshole.
You shouldn't be "forced" to learn about other eligions, but you should make an effort - Christian Britain is not the only place in the world you know.
"If I broke into someone's house because they have a better standard of living than me, and then declared that they should obey my beliefs and follow what I say, would you agree with my actions? I doubt it"
Yeah, you're right. But firstly immigration is not like breaking into someone's home. Britain relies on immigration to survive, we need these people here. But if someone came into my house to do some work and asked me to understand their beliefs - then yes. Obey them - no. But trying to understand them is always needed, so a reasoned judgement can be made - you don't have to agree just understand
A final point about the Sikhs. It is a little hypocritical. But we can't carry knives as there is a very good chance we could be a yob who uses them to knife people. A Sikh who is devout enough to wear a sword is not going to stab anyone (not guaranteed, but if you saw a nun carrying a knife would you expect to be knifed?).
"Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suf-fer-ing"
"but at the same time critise
"but at the same time critise Muslims for not wanting to embrace our religions and learn our culture."
It's not me living in India, it's them living here. I have always said that should I ever *move* to another country I would make a concerted effort to learn the language and the religion/culture of that place. I would not be offended at someone speaking a foreign language in London or whatever...it's a massive tourist attraction and I would never expect people to speak English just because they're on holiday....however, I do find it offensive when I'm speaking to someone on the Customer Service Desk at my workplace and they start speaking to each other in Punjabi knowing full well I have no idea what they are saying.
"Yeah, you're right. But firstly immigration is not like breaking into someone's home."
Illegal immigration is though. Our problem with illegal immigration is a direct consequence of, 1) Our excessive generosity to anyone wanting to live here (i.e. normal immigration), and 2) The excessive amount of benefits we afford to everyone.
I agree with you about the Sikh thing, but some may consider it unfair that one rule can apply to some, but not to others. Point is, the sword can be used as an offensive weapon quite obviously. Dunno about you, but how would you feel if you were a stab victim of someone who stole a sword off of a passing Sikh and used it to stab you? Personally I'd be enraged someone was carrying a sword in the first place.
Unlikely scenario admittedly...but a lot of unlikely scenarios happen everyday, and people face the consequences of not planning for unlikely scenarios everyday...
"Bigamy is having one wife too many. Monogamy is the same."
- Oscar Wilde
Fair enough
"It's not me living in India, it's them living here"
Yeah that is true. But if they make up such a significant proportion of our population does their culture not qualify as part of ours? The Muslim community is big, and I would say part of our culture. We are now a multicultural society. Just what proportionm of a country has to be Muslim for their culture to count?
"Our problem with illegal immigration is a direct consequence of, 1) Our excessive generosity to anyone wanting to live here (i.e. normal immigration)."
People illegally immigrate whether or not we want them to. Look at the Polish-Ukraine border. When Poland joined the EU it tightened up its previously-open border with the Ukraine. Despite being hostile to immigration, illegal immigration and smuggling has soared. Being hostile to illegal immigration does not necessarily stop it happening (look at the U.S in the 1920s)We kind of have to be open as we rely so much on immigration
And the Sikh thing? Fair thing about the danger of the sword, but if someone stole a car and ran you over, would you be outrage at the original car owner for daring to have that car?
"Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suf-fer-ing"
Sorry, but I think that sayin
Sorry, but I think that saying this is a "West vs. Not-west" thing is bullshit.
This is about an already sensitivie world situation being ignited by some asshole newspapers. There's a HUGE difference between censorship and tact. There should not be a law saying that you can't publish something like this, but ANY INTELLIGENT PERSON WOULD HAVE RED FLAGS AND WARNING LIGHTS AND SIRENS GOING OFF IN THEIR HEAD IF THEY HEARD THIS CARTOON WOULD BE PUBLISHED. It's called being tactful. It's called not being a stupid fuckhead. Doing something stupid and then whining about how unreasonable and violent people are being is a stupid, reactionary position. COMMON SENSE and BASIC INTELLIGENCE would dictate that you AVOID SAID SITUATION IN THE FIRST PLACE.
It's like punching someone in the face and then acting astonished and whining when they hit you back. No, of course it's not okay to hit back, and especially not with worldwide riots and arson and death threats. It might be the moral "low ground", but that sure doesn't stop people from doing it. Maybe if everyone was a little more realistic in their expectations of the world, then shit like this would never happen in the first place.